Race in America: What Hillary Couldn't Say

by francinehardaway on May 19, 2008

What I have come to realize over the past few weeks, as Hillary Clinton continued to garner support from large segments of the American people, is that Barack Obama made his speech on race too early. He is going to have to make it again, louder, later. And again, and again.

Hillary has campaigned — after the fiasco of Ready on Day One — on the premise that she is the most electable candidate. She couldn’t really defend that, because of what she couldn’t say: I’m more electable because I am white. If she HAD said that, she would have been accused of dirty tactics. But she was correct.

That’s been proven out in West Virginia, and will be proven in Kentucky, too, where she has a commanding lead. Many segments of the electorate, especially if they have not been highly educated or lived in large, diverse cities, still view blacks as unlike them, and there for a source of discomfort (to say the least).

There was a horrifying segment on The Daily Show last week after the West Virginia primary in which real voters showed their feelings openly in the exit polls.

I hang out with the liberal elites, and I had the same color blind background Barbara Walters did with a father in show business. But I live in Arizona, and I will share an anecdote with you.

This weekend the Bible Church in my neighborhood had an open house. They put up signs saying “all welcome.” I was with my friend Carolyn, who is running for Constable in our precinct, and she is gathering signatures. So she and I decided we’d go to the church open house and say hello. After all, we live down the block from the church.

We were warmly welcomed and given a tour by the young associate pastor. The pastor himself is 30, and the associate is the same age. We really thought the place had a cool vibe, because it is an old church with a very mixed family congregation — lots of kids, Mexican families who live in our diverse neighborhood, and European immigrants.

So Carolyn asked the pastor, “do you welcome gays? I’m gay.” The pastor hesitated, and blurted “not to the level you would want. We have to follow the Bible.” At that point, I asked, “so you wouldn’t want me, either. I’m Jewish.” No, he admitted. I would have to give up being Jewish, Carolyn would have to give up being gay.

So all are welcome. But not gays. And not Jews. This country is FULL of prejudice, racism, sexism, everythingism.

I felt like punching the pastor, even though he was very nice. But he believe that he knows, because it’s in the Bible. I’m sure the people in West Virginia and Kentucky feel the same way.

To what do we attribute the fact that as a people, we don’t look much different than the Shias and Sunnis? The failure of public education? The failure of previous political processes?

Anyway, back to Hillary. I will be curious whether the old white guy, even if he wants to fight an endless war, may not still be preferable to those in American who still see black men as unelectable.

Ugh.

Amplify

  • Adam M

    “Many segments of the electorate, especially if they have not been highly educated or lived in large, diverse cities, still view blacks as unlike them, and there for a source of discomfort (to say the least)….”

    “I hang out with the liberal elites, and I had the same color blind background Barbara Walters did with a father in show business.”

    You hang out with the liberal elites, who see themselves as different – and better – than those who live in rural areas. I’ve spent time in the South and some in the Midwest in smaller cities – I have to say that racial tension in places like Little Rock, AR, or Lincoln, NE between blacks and whites is much much less than in cities like NY, LA, SF. These cities are far better integrated. People who have misperceptions of these places have their own HUGE set of biases. It’s evident in their language – no one who lives there calls the area between the E and W coast “flyover country.” But I’ve heard lots of allegedly sophisticated people from NY and LA use the term.

    “So Carolyn asked the pastor, “do you welcome gays? I’m gay.” The pastor hesitated, and blurted “not to the level you would want. We have to follow the Bible.” At that point, I asked, “so you wouldn’t want me, either. I’m Jewish.” No, he admitted. I would have to give up being Jewish, Carolyn would have to give up being gay.”

    Francine – tolerance for diversity doesn’t mean that everyone has to believe the same thing! Only in the fascistic PC form. To truly respect diversity, you have to appreciate that different people have different – not better or worse – values than you. You have to respect their desire for free association – and exclusion. Neither of you were going to join their church anyway – you were trolling. You did it for the sense of superior self-satisfaction.

    I’ve been guilty of far worse, so please don’t think I’m hurting your feelings – and you’re free to psychoanalyze my post. It’s because I think you’re smart and have the capacity to engage in conversation beyond the surface reading, and dive to the deeper level of the worldview and set of assumptions the argument is based on.

    “So all are welcome. But not gays. And not Jews. This country is FULL of prejudice, racism, sexism, everythingism.”

    Who is excluded from the dinner parties and black tie balls of the “liberal elites” you like to spend time with? Can anyone off the street join this exclusive club? I suspect not.

    “I felt like punching the pastor, even though he was very nice. But he believe that he knows, because it’s in the Bible. I’m sure the people in West Virginia and Kentucky feel the same way.”

    Francine, Many segments of the electorate, especially if they are “educated” or live in large, allegedly diverse cities, still view people in West Virginia and Kentucky as unlike them, and therefore a source of discomfort (to say the least)…. Cuts both ways, doesn’t it? :)

    “I felt like punching the pastor, even though he was very nice. But he believe that he knows, because it’s in the Bible. I’m sure the people in West Virginia and Kentucky feel the same way.”

    Yes, I’m sure they feel the same way towards those who see themselves as superior elites because they were lucky enough to be born into shoe business like Baba Wawa. But mostly they have the common sense to not want to punch them. If you haven’t noticed, big tolerant diverse cities have higher violent crime rates than anywhere else.

    “To what do we attribute the fact that as a people, we don’t look much different than the Shias and Sunnis? The failure of public education? The failure of previous political processes?”

    Public education is a failure – but not because they need to do a better job of brainwashing the yutes in public screwels. Public education is a failure for the same reason government imposed solutions are always a failure.

    I don’t see how it’s a good use of the power and force of government to force people to believe a common set of things, even if they are things that you think are good. It’s coercion and brainwashing. That power is just as easily perverted to get people to do and believe evil things. It’s the totalitarian way. You can’t force people to like each other. All you can do is take away their freedom of association and individual liberty.

    Just my .02. I’m not picking on you. :) I find what you write interesting and thoughtful enough to respond to.

  • http://www.blogschmog.net Amy

    “You hang out with the liberal elites, who see themselves as different – and better – than those who live in rural areas. I’ve spent time in the South and some in the Midwest in smaller cities – I have to say that racial tension in places like Little Rock, AR, or Lincoln, NE between blacks and whites is much much less than in cities like NY, LA, SF. These cities are far better integrated.” from above

    I’m all for bashing elitism, but the South is not less racist than. . . anywhere. We lived outside New Orleans when Cleo Fields (black) ran against Mary Landrieu (white) for Governor. Despite Mary and Cleo having identical issue positions, 95% of Mary’s supporters in our district (mostly white Metarie) voted for Mike Foster (white) in the run off between Fields and Foster. They voted for a man who’s position on basic issues was the polar opposite of the person for whom they voted in the primary. I can’t think of a reason other than race.

    I was a supported of Mary Landrieu easily shifted my vote to Fields in the run-off and was greatly disappointed in the outcome.

    Thanks for a thought-provoking post.

  • Adam M.

    “We lived outside New Orleans when Cleo Fields (black) ran against Mary Landrieu (white) for Governor. Despite Mary and Cleo having identical issue positions, 95% of Mary’s supporters in our district (mostly white Metarie) voted for Mike Foster (white) in the run off between Fields and Foster. They voted for a man who’s position on basic issues was the polar opposite of the person for whom they voted in the primary. I can’t think of a reason other than race.”

    You’re only telling part of the story. Foster was a Democrat, and switched to Republican for the election.

    Fields house district was heavily gerrymandered to include black areas, to help him win the seat.

    I don’t know what district you were in, but 1 district is hardly representative of a state wide race. If they voted for Landrieu and not Fields in the first election, then Foster in the run-off, then they never liked Fields to begin with. You are making the argument it was over race, but that’s not so clear, especially since before the election, all 3 were democrats. Fields spending $46000 of taxpayer money on flyers meant to boost his gubernatorial bid in a year when corruption was a big issue sure didn’t help him! Neither did the video of him pocketing $20,000 from former Governor (and now in jail) Edwin Edwards, which he refused to explain.

    Calling the victory of a someone who seemed less crooked than a someone who was clearly more crooked isn’t racist.

    If Louisiana is so racist, why did they vote for Bobby Jindal to be the first Indian-American governor of a state?

    How is this different than the overwhelming black support for Obama, given that his and HRC’s policies are about a half an inch apart? They differ only on irrelevant policy wonkism. They both want to use the government to steal from people who don’t support them, and give to their supporters. The GOP and Dems are identical in this regard – they are merely fighting over the levers of power and control of the confiscatory powers of government. A pox on them both!

  • john

    “I’m all for bashing elitism, but the South is not less racist than. . . anywhere. We lived outside New Orleans when Cleo Fields (black) ran against Mary Landrieu (white) for Governor. Despite Mary and Cleo having identical issue positions, 95% of Mary’s supporters in our district (mostly white Metarie) voted for Mike Foster (white) in the run off between Fields and Foster. They voted for a man who’s position on basic issues was the polar opposite of the person for whom they voted in the primary. I can’t think of a reason other than race.”

    Have you seen the %age of Blacks voting for Obama, don’t you think THAT has anything to do with race….guys….Most people in this country are NOT racist….maybe Judgmental….It would be nice if politics was based on facts and issues and not emotion….I don’t think I have seen a politician get a bigger “FREE PASS” than Obama has gotten (Could this be dare I say because of his Race)….How could a person running for the highest office make such a poor error in “judgment” to allow his young daughters to go to such a church where such toxic hate was being spewed (NO young child should be allowed to be exposed to such rants – they so impressionable(if that is a word)), Nobody knows his position on gun control, He wants to bring the troops back home in 6 months but does not say how, no facts behind the 2.1 trillion he wants to invest to create jobs (The Govt in the business of creating jobs-great idea), No issue that he made a gaffe saying he campaigned in all 57 states, His voting record does not indicate that he is a unifier yet people based on emotion think he is an integrator, and how is Obama even qualified to give a speech on race in America, his mother was white and his father an African, he has no ties to slavery or America’s racist past (if people want to harp on that)? Actually he never even lived continuously in the US until he was ten years old….facts and issues based politics people, please check your emotions at the door….

    Have you seen the %age of Blacks voting for Obama, don’t you THAT has anything to do with race….guys….Most people in this country are NOT racist….maybe Judgemental….It would be nice if politics was based on facts and issues and not emotion….I don’t think I have seen a politician get a bigger “FREE PASS” than Obama has gotten (Could this be dare I say because of his Race)….How could a person running for the highest office make such a poor error in “judgement” to allow his young daughters to go to such a church where such toxic hate was being spewed (NO young child should be allowed to be exposed to such rants they so impreshionable(if that is a word)), Nobody knows his position on gun control, He wants to bring the troops back home in 6 months but does not say how, no facts behind the 2.1 trillion he wants to invest to create jobs (The Govt in the business of creating jobs-great idea), No issue that he made a gaffe saying he campainged in all 57 states, His voting record does not indicate that he is a unifyer yet people based on emotion thing he is an integrator, and how is Obama even qualified to give a speech on race in America, his mother was white and his father an African, he has no ties to salvery or America’s racist past? Actually never even lived continuesly in the US until ge was ten years old….facts and issues based politics people, please check your emotions at the door….

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com francine hardaway

    Hmmm…you all seem to be doing very well having a conversation among yourselves, and the posts indicate that there is a deep division. Very interesting, and thank you all for participating. I am learning a lot!

  • http://politics.drumsnwhistles.com/ Karoli

    There is a generational thing at work here. My mother in law, raised in the very conservative Midwest, is no racist. She doesn’t have a mean bone in her body. Yet, she too is guilty of separating people into silos. She has no problem being the pastor’s wife of a very diverse church that was mainly black, but will describe gatherings where the ‘black folks stayed together’ and the ‘white folks stayed together’. She’s not trying to denigrate one over the other — this is her generation talking.

    My generation is a mixed bag. There are lots of people who resented busing in the 70′s, because it was done so badly. Of course, the blame was placed on the black community rather than looking inward at the fact that schools with a majority of white students were far better funded than ones with predominantly black populations. Still, most of my contemporaries try hard to overcome that resentment, with mixed results.

    Then there is my daughter’s generation, where she goes to school with Samoans, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Pakistanis, etc. It doesn’t even register with her that there’s a difference when it comes to skin color.

    I’m encouraged by that. I’m encouraged that as new generations come into the voting stream, race is less and less of an issue.

    As to churches and gays, this is a sticking point with me and has been for years. Evidently it is also a sticking point with the younger generation as well, who are leaving churches in droves because of their perception that the church seems to treat homosexuality as a “bigger sin” than true crimes against humanity, like racism, spousal abuse, genocide, and the like.

    Will it change? I think yes, it will. But it’s also generational.

    As to Jews and Christians in the the context of a church, was the pastor really saying you weren’t welcome? Or was he speaking in the context of religion (rather than heritage)? Most pastors I know welcome Jews, but the two religions are not reconcilable once you get to the question of Jesus’ role in them, which is what I’m guessing he was saying, perhaps inartfully.

  • john

    “I will be curious whether the old white guy, even if he wants to fight an endless war, may not still be preferable to those in American who still see black men as unelectable”

    That in itself is a statement to stir a hornets nest Francine….On what did you base MCain’s position that he is going to wage an endless war, I can be sure that it is from that statement he made about keeping American troops for the next 100 years, how convenient to twist a statement like that to your advantage in an argument, the context he was speaking in can easily be interpreted as hey! Nobody knows what the heck is going on over there and Iran is building an N-bomb, we need to do what is in the best interests of America, and an extension of this sentiment about endless war for people is somehow equating, that voting for McCain is voting for Bush 2.0, All I can say to those people is what if you got jibbed of a promotion because your boss was a jerk? Dubya and McCain are two different people with very different view of how government should function and that is evidenced by how much money McCain appropriates in pork barrel spending for AZ (how about zero), Like I said statements such as the one you just made serve no purpose other than to make people think with their hearts than with their heads and that is where Journalism in America seems to be headed anyway….Again not race, age(by the way the old white dude comment – can I take it out of context and say that you are discriminating because of his age?) (an extremely charismatic black dude vs. an old white guy) but issues.

    By no means am I a McCain fanboy but I am still searching for facts on issues that I care about like the economy, the war, foreign policy, immigration, govt spending, social issues such as abortion, gay rights, gun control etc and I am sure like many people in this great land I don’t know if one candidate has the solutions that I am looking for but if I agree with the candidate that has the most in common then he/she is my candidate.

    And I repeat what Adam had said

    “I’m not picking on you. :) I find what you write interesting and thoughtful enough to respond to.”

  • Adam M.

    “My generation is a mixed bag. There are lots of people who resented busing in the 70′s, because it was done so badly. Of course, the blame was placed on the black community rather than looking inward at the fact that schools with a majority of white students were far better funded than ones with predominantly black populations. Still, most of my contemporaries try hard to overcome that resentment, with mixed results.”

    I think a more useful reading is to question the role of the federal and state government in schools.

    The public school system is and has always been a failure. But that can be said of every single government endeavor. Why should education be different?

    This is an interesting read, regarding one alternative:

    http://mises.org/story/2937

    This artile from mises.org adds a lot of context:

    http://mises.org/story/2216

  • Adam M.

    Obama is just as much a neocon as Bush and McCain

    http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701faessay86401/barack-obama/renewing-american-leadership.html

    They both would US troops in 140 or so countries. Obama wants to add 100,000 ground troops to the Army and Marines. He thinks US power can be used to fix the world. I disagree! That speech is from the Woodrow Wilson center no less. Wilson – who got us into WWI. A worthless war that killed a generation of young American men and led directly to WWII and the worst horrors of the 20th century.

    “Enhancing our military will not be enough. As commander in chief, I would also use our armed forces wisely. When we send our men and women into harm’s way, I will clearly define the mission, seek out the advice of our military commanders, objectively evaluate intelligence, and ensure that our troops have the resources and the support they need. I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened.” – Barak Obama

    Don’t fool yourself into thinking he’s the peace candidate. He is not opposed to using “unilateral” and pre-emptive force. I call him Black Bush.

    “Dubya and McCain are two different people with very different view of how government should function and that is evidenced by how much money McCain appropriates in pork barrel spending for AZ (how about zero)”

    McCain gets his buddies in other states to sponsor Arizona pork barrel projects, and then he votes for them. Plus he supports lots of pork barrel projects – especially those related to militarism and spying.

    McCain is no better on the 2nd amendment than Obama. Gun Owners of America give him an F. http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm I am not renewing my NRA membership over their support for McCain who has consistently stabbed gun owners in the back. I’m going to send $ to GOA and maybe JPFO instead this year.

    If you care about the economy, McCain isn’t your guy. He favors government interference in every aspect of the economy. Just like Obama. He also, like Obama, supports our current retarded expansionist fiat money fiscal policy. Inflation is a hidden tax created by the government inflating the money supply. They print dollars and spend them, and make yours worth less in the process.

    The two leading parties are like the Crips (Dems – blue) and Bloods (GOP – red) gangs – fighing over turf and the proceeds of a criminal enterprise.

  • John

    Thanks for the post Adam, I have a couple of questions

    1. I am sure a lot of politicians do that (pork barrel voodoo) what I was trying to say was that he seems to be better than the people he is competing against.

    2. I am sure again every politician no matter who it is wants to regulate something, I am not sure that there is a politician that has not written bill to regulate something in our lives but to equate what Obama plans on doing to McCain maybe a stretch.

    3. I am realistic on what to expect out of McCain, Obama or Hillary and judging by their platforms – at least the republican and the democratic hopefuls seem far, far apart in how a government should be run. Example : In Obama’s own words

    “According to John McCain he said the best way for us to address the fact that millions of Americans are losing their homes is to just sit back and watch it happen. In his entire speech yesterday he offered not one policy, not one idea, not one bit of relief for the nearly thirty five thousand north Carolinians who were forced to foreclose on their dream in the last few months. Not one, not one single idea or a single policy prescription.”
    And McCain stands by this, If people made stupid choices they are responsible for their actions, Its simple stuff like this that makes me think that McCain actually gets it. But again I am far from making a decision but again it looks like we will have to choose the less of two evils (as much as I do not want to use that word).

  • http://mrontemp.blogspot.com/ Ontario Emperor

    Back to the question of Jews and the Bible. If the pastor had any smarts, his reply to you should have been “Jesus was a Jew. Paul was a Jew.” Although some regard them as “not Jewish,” there are groups of Messianic Jews who are both Jewish and Christian.

    And on a more general note re your comment “But he believe[s] that he knows, because it’s in the Bible.” Everyone, whether they admit it or not, regards a certain set of principles to be authoritative. Even those who believe in moral relativism have the belief that moral relativism is a good thing. And the people who “question authority” never question why authority should be questioned.

    In fact, one can look at the point of this blog post, in which Clinton is evil for implying that white people are better than black people. WHY can we authoritatively say that Clinton is evil? Because “we believe that we know,” because it’s in the Declaration of Independence. :) Or the ACLU newsletter. Or the Bible. Or the SAT scores. Or the number of teeth. Or whatever.

    Because there is a diversity of beliefs, even in the US, a statement that “item X is wrong” needs to be coupled with a statement regarding “why item X is wrong” (e.g. item X is wrong because all non-felon adults of sufficient mental capacity are created equal).

    And a note to John – there will be more than two choices on your ballot in November. There’s no reason why any of us have to settle for the lesser of two evils.

  • Linda-g

    First of all, a little controversy goes a long way toward bringing out the best (as well as the worst) of our inner-most thoughts. Thanks Francine for spicing it up.
    There are several areas I would like to address:
    To Adam’s comments:”tolerance for diversity doesn’t mean that everyone has to believe the same thing! …You have to respect their desire for free association – and exclusion.”
    “So all are welcome. But not gays. And not Jews. This country is FULL of prejudice, racism, sexism, everythingism.”
    Who is excluded from the dinner parties and black tie balls of the “liberal elites” you like to spend time with? Can anyone off the street join this exclusive club? I suspect not.”

    You are correct in your assessment of tolerance and diversity. However, this is what raises the hair on my neck when it comes to religious institutions that pretend to be loving, giving, welcoming and all inclusive (aka tolerant and diversified) yet insist that everyone believe and act as they do in order to be accepted. This takes us to the comparison of the liberal elite exclusion and religious exclusion of gays and jews.
    The mantra of Fundamental Christianity is that we are all “Children of God” and “Sinners saved by Grace” The invitation to participate was offered by God without strings attached. It’s the messengers (the church) who laud the invite but become selective about the attendees. The fact that they are selective doesn’t rattle my cage, but the fact that they are hypocritical does.
    I have to say that the term “liberal elite” appears to be confused with social elite. The liberal elite I know hang at coffee shops, bookstores, and libraries. Their clubs consist of seminars, workshops, camping trips, etc. None of these are off limits to anyone that I know of. Being a liberal elite is not synonymous with snobbery. Anyway, we all know that the new criterion for elitist is shopping at Whole Foods.

    Now, on to the racism issue and the regional dispute. Having been born and raised in Seattle and lived my live in urban areas on the West Coast, I was appalled when I went to Texas and Louisiana to work with a post-Katrina disaster group. In my four visits to the area I have seen the worst poverty and disenfranchisement of African Americans that one could imagine. I have heard, first hand, the stories of poor Blacks running for their lives over a bridge in order to get to higher ground, only to have shots fired over their heads to keep them out of the exclusively “White” Gentilly neighborhoods. I personally knew Blacks who were arrested for no good reason and beaten for asking why. I witnessed Texans referring to Black men as “Boy” and yet these people [Lower Ninth Ward Residents] welcomed me [white as can be] into their 98% Black community with open arms. I don’t care who voted for whom. Racism is still a mainstay in the South. Sure, LA has it’s share of violence, i.e Rodney King and a plethora of police brutality issues. But, these are incidents, not the pervasive mentality.

    One issue that I find interesting is that of skin color v. ethnicity. One need not look in a Pantone book to know that Obama is not Black, he is mocha. In the Black culture mixed-race was once abhorrent and light skinned “negroes” were given privileges that dark-skinned slaves were denied. This caused a huge resentment. My hat is off to all of the forward thinking African Americans who are willing to put the past behind them and wholeheartedly support Obama even though he is half-white. Obviously they have looked beyond the racial divide. It would behoove White Americans to do the same

  • John

    response to Linda’s post :

    With “religious institutions that pretend to be loving, giving, welcoming and all inclusive” especially Christianity and anybody who has read the Bible should know that Christianity is NOT an inclusive religion – any religion that teaches that if you don’t accept their god as their savior would burn in hell cannot be inclusive by definition so you sound like an intelligent woman they why be soooo naive. None of the major religions that originated in the west are – Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

    Now coming to your next point about the liberal elite – you have equated a sizeable portion of the American population as liberal elite because they visit libraries, seminars or go camping, I really don’t think having hobbies or attending seminars accounts for being a liberal elite….almost anyone with a decent IQ I would think would participate any one of those activities and maybe that in itself can be a glimpse of how closed a social elite’s mind can be which is the thinking that doing those things somehow make you a better human than the rest….

    About racism….of course we have racism in this country, I don’t think anyone is arguing that, but to say that it is almost institutional in the south and not in the west is almost not even a point one should make in an argument in my opinion….the south has a history, the west has a different history, atleast in the south the Black population is there to tell their side of the story, whatever happened to the Aztec populations of the west?? Have you even gone to Compton/south central LA/Oakland or even try downtown Seattle, I don’t think those populations in the mighty west are any better than their brothers down south….Just because a rouge cop perpetrates a crime against a black man does not make a whole group of people racist, please be objective and try to know each situation based on facts and don’t paint any group with a broad brush be it Black/White/Hispanic/Asian.

    On Obama and the argument you make that the darker blacks have gotten over their prejudice of lighter blacks and voting for him has nothing to do with that, if a darker black was running against a lighter black lets gets those stats and discuss, the fact that a ligher black is running against a white man is why the darker blacks are voting for a lighter black, please compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. And according to the polls there seems to be a very very large percentage of the black population that is voting for Obama just because he is black/half black/mocha whatever you choose.

    Again I am not saying that everyone should make choices based on the color of ones skin but make decisions with facts and data available to them. We as humans have an extraordinary ability to twist contexts in our minds to make ourselves look good.

    And to Ontario Emporer about more than one candidate on the ballot, ya! But what makes you think those are any better?

  • Linda-g

    John, you sound like you have an axe to grind. I believe you missed my point on many levels. So, I am going to exercise my right as a liberal elitist to agree to disagree and move on. Good Luck!

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com francine hardaway

    I think most people who argue questions of race or religion come at the topic from a perspective that has been deeply ingrained from birth and isn’t necessarily logical.

  • John

    Hi Linda,
    No axe to grind! Just my 2 cents. we can respectfully agree to disagree.

  • Adam M.

    “And to Ontario Emporer about more than one candidate on the ballot, ya! But what makes you think those are any better?”

    Whomever the Libertarian candidate is, is going to be a vast improvement over any Democrat or Republican.

    The Democrats and Republicans both aim to expand the role of government in your life. They use the argument that we should give them the power to limit our choices because if we do, they can solve all our problems with just the right policy.

  • John

    to Ontario Emporer:
    You have a great point, I should do a little more research on the Libertarian candidate, with Ron Paul (although a republican) gone I overlooked that party.

  • John

    Maybe this not the right place to post this view but I’ll do anywayz, I always wondered why the Libertarian party is always a fringe party when so many people I know actually agree more with that party than the two dominant ones….never quite understood than phenomenon.

  • Adam M
  • http://jackkessler.blogspot.com Jack Kessler

    Francine, since everyone else has already beaten you up on the subjects of race, gaiety, and politics, let me be the first to put the cudgels to you on the subject of religion.

    As to Jews joining Christian congregations, the pastor was right and you were wrong, way wrong. From his point of view, you were saying to him, “Your religion is meaningless. Your congregation is just a social club. Keeping me out is the same as keeping me out of a country club or a school.”

    The pastor has made it his life work to spread and foster Christianity. He believes in the gospels. He doesn’t think his religion is meaningless. You were also saying that Judaism and Jewish identity are meaningless as well.

    From a Christian perspective Jesus is the savior, the light of the world, the son of God. For Jews there is an unbridgeable gulf between the human and the divine. To us it is blasphemous and unthinking to imagine that a man could be G_d. You can believe one or the other, but not both. (Which is why Messianic “Jews” are Christians, not Jews, no matter what they claim.)

    Our religion is not meaningless. Neither is Christianity.

    Your asking to join a Christian congregation without intending to convert to Christianity was clueless at best. Your being offended by the pastor for having more sense and/or taste than you did, was just silly.

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com francine hardaway

    Nonsense, Jack. There are Jews for Jesus. There are all kinds of gradations of Judaism. And I am not a practicing Jew, nor did I say I was. I am not a fan of ANY organized religion, because MOST of them do what you say — think they are the only people with a valid belief system.

  • http://www.valleyprblog.com Len Gutman

    I’ve always found organized religion as an institution (no matter what faith) to be both exclusive and quite smarmy about their little club. I’m sure there’d be no place for me in that church either — since I’m an atheist. Then again, I have no interest in being in a church in the first place with the exception of the occasional wedding, bar mitzvah or town meeting.

    As for America’s racist underbelly…I moved to Atlanta for a year and found a wicked streak of racism just under the radar — on both sides. In Atlanta, at least from my perspective, there’s a sort of accepted segregation. The south does seem to mix more politely than the north, but the racism is there regardless.

    I love Barack Obama and hope he wins…but I’ll be the least surprised person if the race issue foils his opportunity to bring us closer together as a nation of many colors. I guess I’m still a pessimist when it comes to America making the right choices. Somehow I think we’ll find a way to fuck this up.

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com francine hardaway

    I worry about that. All the time.

  • http://mrontemp.blogspot.com/ Ontario Emperor

    I don’t believe that theists are the only ones who insist on their own worldview, and exclude anyone who doesn’t conform to their world view. This is common in any social organization; they are going to have a set of rules, and if you don’t conform to the rules, you’re out.

    Obama and his ilk talk about unity and inclusion…but if your name is John McCain, you’d better not show up at an Obama rally.

    And I might as well bash the right while I’m at it – if you support continuing U.S. anti-terrorism assistance to the Iraqi people, and you also support abortion, then stay away from any GOP rallies.

    Moving to the non-political, Twitter promotes itself as way for anyone to say what they’re doing – but if you choose to do so in 141 characters, forget it.

    So western religions (or, for that matter, any religion – in certain religions, unenlightened people are scum compared to the enlightened ones) are not unique in closing the door on people who do not conform.

    Show me any organization who accepts all, does not judge, and does not rank or identify people by gradations.

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com francine hardaway

    How totally macro!

  • http://www.buzzoop.com John

    Ontario Emporer won’t get an argument from my side on your last post. Good way to put it we as humans judge, rank or identify people by gradations.

  • http://blog.stealthmode.com thomas

    Francine imagine that a pastor who requires people to follow the bible gays cannot practice and be part of the church how shocking!
    and a man that believes that Jesus is his savior wont let you practice Judaism in his church ANOTHER SHOCK!

    How close minded maybe next time you go to temple you can take him to Synagogue and he will be welcome keeping his beliefs and being part of the Jewish community

    You are the one thats close minded as to your views are the only ones to have and dont hold open the possibility that other people have and are entitled to different views

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